Journals of the Senate
52 Elizabeth II, A.D. 2003, Canada
Journals of the Senate
2nd Session, 37th Parliament
Issue 67
Thursday, June 12, 2003
1:30 p.m.
The Honourable Daniel Hays, Speaker
The Members convened were:
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Andreychuk, Angus, Atkins, Bacon, Banks, Beaudoin, Biron, Bolduc, Buchanan, Callbeck, Carstairs, Chalifoux, Chaput, Christensen, Cochrane, Comeau, Cook, Cools, Corbin, Cordy, Day, Di Nino, Doody, Eyton, Fairbairn, Ferretti Barth, Finnerty, Fitzpatrick, Forrestall, Fraser, Furey, Gauthier, Gill, Grafstein, Gustafson, Hays, Jaffer, Joyal, Kelleher, Keon, Kinsella, Kirby, Kolber, Kroft, LaPierre, LeBreton, Léger, Losier-Cool, Lynch-Staunton, Maheu, Meighen, Merchant, Milne, Moore, Morin, Murray, Nolin, Oliver, Pearson, Phalen, Poy, Prud'homme, Ringuette, Rivest, Robertson, Robichaud, Roche, Rompkey, St. Germain, Setlakwe, Sibbeston, Smith, Spivak, Stollery, Stratton, Tkachuk, Watt, Wiebe
The Members in attendance to business were:
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Andreychuk, Angus, Atkins, *Austin, Bacon, Banks, Beaudoin, Biron, Bolduc, Buchanan, Callbeck, Carstairs, Chalifoux, Chaput, Christensen, Cochrane, Comeau, Cook, Cools, Corbin, Cordy, Day, Di Nino, Doody, Eyton, Fairbairn, Ferretti Barth, Finnerty, Fitzpatrick, Forrestall, Fraser, Furey, Gauthier, Gill, Grafstein, Gustafson, Hays, Jaffer, Joyal, Kelleher, Keon, Kinsella, Kirby, Kolber, Kroft, LaPierre, LeBreton, Léger, Losier-Cool, Lynch-Staunton, Maheu, Meighen, Merchant, Milne, Moore, Morin, Murray, Nolin, Oliver, Pearson, Phalen, Poy, Prud'homme, Ringuette, Rivest, Robertson, Robichaud, Roche, Rompkey, St. Germain, Setlakwe, Sibbeston, Smith, Spivak, Stollery, Stratton, Tkachuk, Watt, Wiebe
PRAYERS
SENATORS' STATEMENTS
Some Honourable Senators made statements.
DAILY ROUTINE OF BUSINESS
Presentation of Reports from Standing or Special Committees
The Honourable Senator Chalifoux presented the following:
THURSDAY, June 12, 2003
The Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples has the honour to present its
FOURTH REPORT
(Revised)
Your Committee, to which was referred Bill C-6, An Act to establish the Canadian Centre for the Independent Resolution of First Nations Specific Claims to provide for the filing, negotiation and resolution of specific claims and to make related amendments to other Acts, in obedience to its Order of Reference dated Wednesday, April 2, 2003, has examined the said Bill and now reports the same with the following amendments:
1. Page 22, clause 47:
(a) Replace line 4 with the following:
(a) in relation to a specific claim that is before the Commission, to summon witnesses or to order production of documents;
(b) whether the claim and any other specific
(b) Replace line 7 with the following:
(c) any other issue that needs to be resolved
2. Page 24, clause 56: Replace line 1 with the following:
maximum of ten million dollars, based
3. Page 29, clause 76: Replace line 19 with the following:
considers appropriate. In carrying out the review, the Minister shall give to first nations an opportunity to make representations.
4. Page 29, new clauses 76.1 and 76.2: Add after line 32 the following:
76.1 The Minister shall, before making a recommendation under section 5 or subsection 20(1) or 41(1), notify claimants — which notification may be by ordinary mail sent to their latest known addresses — that they may, during a period that the Minister specifies of not less than 30 days after the date of the notice, make representations in respect of appointments to the office or offices in question.
76.2 (1) At no time shall a person who was appointed under section 5 or subsection 20(1) or 41(1) act for any party in connection with any specific claim in relation to which they performed any work or concerning which they obtained significant information during their term in office.
(2) Persons who were appointed under section 5 or subsection 20(1) or 41(1) shall not, within a period of one year after the end of their term in office, accept any employment with or enter into a contract for services with the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development or a first nation that had a pending specific claim — before the Commission or the Tribunal, in the case of the Chief Executive Officer, or, in the case of a commissioner or adjudicator, before the Division of the Centre to which the person was appointed — at any time during their term in office.
5. Page 30, new clause 77.1: Add before line 1 with the following:
77.1 During the period of one year after the coming into force of section 76.1, the reference in that section to "claimants'' shall be read as a reference to "claimants under this Act or under the Specific Claims Policy of the Government of Canada''.
Your Committee also made certain observations, which are appended to this report.
Respectfully submitted,
THELMA J. CHALIFOUX
Chair
OBSERVATIONS
to the Fourth Report of the
Standing Senate Committee on
Aboriginal Peoples
Comments on Bill C-6,
The Specific Claims Resolution Act
Waiver Requirement on Rulings of Validity
The Committee frequently heard, both from First Nations and neutral observers, that the requirement for claimants to waive their rights to compensation above the specified cap (as set out in Section 32) in order to obtain a Tribunal ruling on the validity of their claim was the single most significant flaw with the Bill. The government expressed concern that removing this requirement would pose undue and unpredictable financial risk and might imbalance the overall operations of the Commission and Tribunal. Given the safeguards built into the legislation (Section 71), this seems to reflect an excessive concern with risk aversion. We are concerned that the financial cap on validity will create two categories of claims within the system and could create a significant impediment to the settlement of larger claims. However, we recognize that, in its early years, the Centre may need to operate under conservative principles and that an incremental approach to this issue might be most appropriate. Therefore, the Committee did not amend the Bill with respect to this provision.
We would ask that the Minister in the review of the Act in three to five years, pay particular attention to the impact on the cap on validity. The effects on larger claims, the increase or decrease in the number of First Nations choosing to utilize the courts and the frequency of the use of the Tribunal when claims are rejected for negotiation are all areas of interest.
Delay
One of the primary goals of this Bill is to provide for more speedy resolution of claims. Nonetheless, there are many areas of potential delay built into the process. Most notably, there is no requirement on the Minister to make a decision on whether to accept a claim for negotiation within a set time period. We have been told that this flexibility is necessary because of the complexity of many claims and the limited legal and other resources available to the Minister to make these determinations. As well, the government may be limited in the number of claims it can address because of the budget available for settlements. We would therefore urge the government to allocate significant additional resources to the process of validity determination, negotiation and settlement of claims so that the admirable goals of the Bill can be met.
We would ask that the Minister, in the review of the Act in three to five years, pay particular attention to the impact of the issues of delay and resources that have been allocated to the process of validity determination.
The Honourable Senator Chalifoux moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Milne, that the Report be placed on the Orders of the Day for consideration at the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Honourable Senator Murray, P.C., Chair of the Standing Senate Committee on National Finance, presented its Seventh Report (Bill C-28, An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on February 18, 2003) without amendment.
The Honourable Senator Carstairs, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., that the Bill be placed on the Orders of the Day for a third reading at the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Honourable Senator Milne presented the following:
Thursday, June 12, 2003
The Standing Committee on Rules, Procedures and the Rights of Parliament has the honour to present its
ELEVENTH REPORT
Pursuant to its authority under Rule 86(1)(f), your Committee is pleased to report as follows:
That the Senators Attendance Policy be amended by replacing subsections 5(2) and (3) with the following:
Medical certificate
(2) For each consecutive sitting day in the session beyond six to be registered as a day of illness, a medical certificate must be submitted to the Clerk; the certificate may serve for one or more sitting days within a period of up to three calendar months.
Subsequent certificates
(3) Where a Senator has submitted a medical certificate, all absences for illness during the following twelve calendar months for a period beyond six consecutive sitting days must be substantiated with a certificate to be obtained from a medical doctor designated by the Clerk; the certificate may serve for one or more sitting days within a period of up to three calendar months.
Respectfully submitted,
LORNA MILNE
Chair
With leave of the Senate,
The Honourable Senator Milne moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Chalifoux, that the Report be placed on the Orders of the Day for consideration later this day.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
First Reading of Commons Public Bills
A Message was brought from the House of Commons with a Bill C-411, An Act to establish Merchant Navy Veterans Day, to which they desire the concurrence of the Senate.
The Bill was read the first time.
With leave of the Senate,
The Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Milne, that the Bill be placed on the Orders of the Day for a second reading at the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Notices of Motions
With leave of the Senate,
The Honourable Senator Forrestall moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Banks:
That the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence have power to sit at 6:00 p.m. on Monday next, June 16, 2003, even though the Senate may then be sitting, and that Rule 95(4) be suspended in relation thereto.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
MESSAGES FROM THE HOUSE OF COMMONS
A Message was brought from the House of Commons to return Bill S-5, An Act respecting a National Acadian Day,
And to acquaint the Senate that the Commons have passed this Bill, without amendment.
ORDERS OF THE DAY
GOVERNMENT BUSINESS
Bills
Order No. 1 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
Second reading of Bill C-24, An Act to amend the Canada Elections Act and the Income Tax Act (political financing).
The Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., that the Bill be read the second time.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Kinsella for the Honourable Senator Angus moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Cochrane, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Motions
Order No. 1 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
Reports of Committees
Order No. 1 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
OTHER BUSINESS
Senate Public Bills
Orders No. 1 to 5 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Bolduc, seconded by the Honourable Senator Cochrane, for the second reading of Bill S-17, An Act respecting the Canadian International Development Agency, to provide in particular for its continuation, governance, administration and accountability.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., for the Honourable Senator De Bané, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Prud'homme, P.C., that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Order No. 7 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
Commons Public Bills
Order No. 1 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
Reports of Committees
Orders No. 1 and 2 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Resuming debate on the consideration of the Fourth Report of the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence (study on the proposal of the Valiants Group) tabled in the Senate on December 12, 2002.
Debate concluded.
Orders No. 4 to 9 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Consideration of the Eleventh Report of the Standing Committee on Rules, Procedures and the Rights of Parliament (Senators Attendance Policy) presented in the Senate earlier this day.
The Honourable Senator Milne moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Joyal, P.C., that the Report be adopted.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Cools moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Watt, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Other
Order No. 126 (motion) was called and postponed until the next sitting.
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Di Nino, seconded by the Honourable Senator Atkins:
That the Senate call on the Government of Canada to support the request of the Government of Taiwan to obtain observer status at the World Health Organization (WHO).
After debate,
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted on division.
Orders No. 5 (motion), 2, 14 (inquiries), 66, 121, 122 (motions), 16 (inquiry), 115 (motion), 17, 6, 11, 15, 21 (inquiries), 92 (motion), 22 (inquiry) and 91 (motion) were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Di Nino, seconded by the Honourable Senator Kinsella:
That the Senate urge the Government of Canada to reform the Canada Elections Act and other pertinent Acts to eliminate all donations to political parties and to replace them with a system of full public financing, and to establish an impartial, independent committee to direct and oversee the said system, including setting and enforcing standards and rules of conduct.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Di Nino moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Keon, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Order No. 8 (inquiry) was called and postponed until the next sitting.
Resuming debate on the inquiry of the Honourable Senator Cook calling the attention of the Senate to a Position Statement presented to the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans concerning the possible closure of the fishery for Northern and Gulf Cod in NAFO Areas 2J3KL and 3Pn4RS.
Debate concluded.
Order No. 104 (motion) was called and postponed until the next sitting.
Resuming debate on the inquiry of the Honourable Senator Prud'homme, P.C., calling the attention of the Senate to Canadian foreign policy on the Middle East.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Cools moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Day, that further debate on the inquiry be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
_____________________________________________________________
With leave,
The Senate reverted to Presentation of Reports From Standing or Special Committees.
The Honourable Senator Furey presented the following:
THURSDAY, June 12, 2003
The Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs has the honour to present its
FIFTH REPORT
Your Committee, to which was referred the motion of the Honourable Senator Carstairs, P.C., dated June 10, 2003 and the Message from the House of Commons dated June 6, 2003, relating to certain amendments to Bill C-10B, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals), passed by the Senate on May 15, 2003, has, in obedience to its Orders of Reference dated June 10, 2003 and June 11, 2003 respectively, examined the said motion and Message and now reports as follows:
PART I
Your Committee recommends that a Message be sent to the House of Commons to acquaint that House that, with respect to its Message to the Senate dated June 6, 2003 regarding Bill C-10B:
(i) the Senate notes that the House of Commons has agreed with the amendments numbered 1 and 5;
(ii) the Senate does insist on its amendment numbered 2;
(iii) in lieu of the amendment numbered 3 with which the House of Commons has disagreed, the Senate adopts the following amendment and requests that it be concurred in by the House of Commons:
3. Page 3, clause 2: Add after line 10 the following:
"(3) No person shall be convicted of an offence under paragraph (1)(a) if the pain, suffering, injury or death is caused in the course of traditional hunting, trapping or fishing practices carried out by a person who is one of the Aboriginal peoples of Canada in the area in which the Aboriginal person has harvesting rights under or by virtue of existing aboriginal or treaty rights within the meaning of section 35 of the Constitution Act, 1982, and any pain, suffering or injury caused is no more than is reasonably necessary in the carrying out of those traditional practices.''; and
(iv) with respect to the amendment numbered 4, the Senate accepts in part the wording proposed by the House of Commons, but adopts the following amendment and requests that it be concurred in by the House of Commons:
4. Page 4, clause 2: Replace lines 22 to 24 with the following:
"182.5 For greater certainty, the defences set out in subsection 429(2) apply in respect of proceedings for an offence under this Part.''.
PART II
Your Committee carefully considered the message sent by the House of Commons on the subject of Bill C-10B. The Committee held meetings on the arguments contained in the message as well the debates that took place in the House of Commons on the Senate amendments. The Committee heard from Mr. Paul Macklin, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice, in order to fully assess the rationale for the decision of the House of Commons on the Senate amendments to Bill C-10B. It was clear from this latter meeting that there is a fair amount of agreement in both Houses on the need for cruelty to animals legislation that recognizes reasonable and generally accepted practices involving animals (e.g. scientific research conducted in accordance with generally accepted standards, traditional hunting and fishing practices of Aboriginal peoples, reasonable and generally accepted practices of animal management, husbandry or slaughter). Where the Houses differ, however, is on the methodology that should be adopted to ensure the legal recognition of such practices.
Therefore, in a spirit of cooperation and in order to ensure swift passage of Bill C-10B, your Committee appreciates the agreement of the House of Commons on amendments 1 and 5 and it accepts, with modification, amendment 4. With respect to amendment 2, your Committee has insisted on its original amendment because it remains convinced that this amendment offers better protection to individuals engaged in generally accepted practices involving animals, as referred to above. The Committee also remains convinced as to the merits of amendment number 3 dealing with Aboriginal peoples. However the Committee did make a change to the amendment in order to address concerns raised in the House of Commons that the Senate amendment as originally proposed would allow an Aboriginal person from one geographic region to go to any area where Aboriginal peoples have rights and make a claim under the proposed provision.
Respectfully submitted,
GEORGE FUREY
Chair
The Honourable Senator Furey moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Gill, that the Report be placed on the Orders of the Day for consideration at the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
MOTIONS
The Honourable Senator Losier-Cool moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Maheu:
That, in accordance with paragraph 131(2) of the Rules, the Government of Canada, namely the Department of Justice, provide the Senate and the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages with a complete and detailed response to the Third Report of the Committee, adopted by the Senate this past June 5, 2003.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Honourable Senator Maheu moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Losier-Cool:
That the date for the presentation by the Standing Senate Committee on Human Rights of the final report on its study on key legal issues affecting the subject of on-reserve matrimonial real property on the breakdown of a marriage or common law relationship and the policy context in which they are situated, which was authorized by the Senate on June 4, 2003, be extended to Wednesday, December 31, 2003.
After debate,
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Honourable Senator Cools moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Watt:
That the Order of the Day for resuming debate on the motion for second reading of Bill S-15, An Act to remove certain doubts regarding the meaning of marriage, which dropped from the Order Paper on June 5, 2003, pursuant to Rule 27(3), be now restored to the Order Paper.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
REPORTS DEPOSITED WITH THE CLERK OF THE SENATE PURSUANT TO RULE 28(2):
Report of the Implementation Committee on the Gwich'in Comprehensive Land Claim Agreement for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2002.—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-500.
Report of the Inuvialuit Final Agreement Implementation Coordinating Committee for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2002.—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-501.
Report of the Implementation Committee on the Sahtu Dene and Metis Comprehensive Land Claim Agreement for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2002.—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-502.
Agreement for RCMP policing services made on March 28, 2003, between Canada and the town of Sackville, New Brunswick, pursuant to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. R-10, sbs. 20(5).—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-503.
Report of the Canada Pension Plan, together with the Auditor General's Report, for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2002, pursuant to the Canada Pension Plan Act, S.C. 1997, c. 40, s. 97. —Sessional Paper No. 2/37-504.
ADJOURNMENT
The Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C.:
That the Senate do now adjourn.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
(Accordingly, at 5:41 p.m. the Senate was continued until 9:00 a.m. tomorrow.)
_____________________________________________________________
Changes in Membership of Committees Pursuant to Rule 85(4)
Standing Senate Committee on National Finance
The names of the Honourable Senators Merchant, Kelleher and Moore substituted for those of the Honourable Senators Phalen, Bolduc and Maheu (June 11).
The name of the Honourable Senator Bolduc substituted for that of the Honourable Senator Kelleher (June 12).
Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs
The name of the Honourable Senator Fairbairn substituted for that of the Honourable Senator Bryden (June 11).
The names of the Honourable Senators Wiebe and Cordy substituted for those of the Honourable Senators Fairbairn and Baker (June 12).
Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration
The name of the Honourable Senator Chaput substituted for that of the Honourable Senator Poulin (June 11).